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Nora Fisher Onar: Welcome, you are coming into the room we'll wait a few moments.

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Nora Fisher Onar: My guests, to arrive.

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grading process for some students to ride.

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Nora Fisher Onar: Thank you for joining us today.

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As we.

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Nora Fisher Onar: kick your week off.

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Nora Fisher Onar: wait another minute or two people come into the room.

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Nora Fisher Onar: Thank you all for joining us.

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Nora Fisher Onar: see many folks from your second audience people from beyond your second audience so welcome from wherever in the country in the world who are joining us.

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Nora Fisher Onar: including us as students who are elsewhere in the country and elsewhere in the world.

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Nora Fisher Onar: Okay, I think we can get started and others may be joining us as our conversation unfolds, so I am.

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Nora Fisher Onar: Getting you today with a great pleasure and a little bit of.

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Nora Fisher Onar: Little you know.

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Nora Fisher Onar: bit of emotion at the fact that this is the last Davies forum lecture and we have very honored to have is actually going to speaker after dinner.

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Nora Fisher Onar: But before we begin, I would like to turn the floor over to a student from our brilliant Davies seminar cohort this year Jackie O metal who hails from environmental studies and she's going to offer an acknowledgement of the stolen lines, upon which we all stand here in the beta.

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Jackie Romero: Thank you i'll be reading a statement inspired by rhonda V mcgee.

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Jackie Romero: The University of San Francisco resides on the traditional homelands and the Rama Touche alone, the tribal nation.

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Jackie Romero: We acknowledge the painful history of genocide and forced removal from this territory and we celebrate the public presence.

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Jackie Romero: Of along the descendants, who are working today to preserve and nourish their indigenous identity, we invite you to take a moment to feel the land beneath your feet.

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Jackie Romero: So much has happened on this land that has been centered in violence and injustice and in love and joy, we can hold this hypocrisy through awareness dedication to land and racial justice and a commitment to Joy as justice.

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Nora Fisher Onar: Thank you so much Jackie.

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Nora Fisher Onar: very much appreciated.

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Nora Fisher Onar: And just introduce myself, I am an orchestra on arm from international studies at the University of San Francisco and I am convener of the Semester status for.

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Nora Fisher Onar: Those of you who have been joining us throughout the Semester, now the goal of the spring 21 Forum has been to make sense of our nascent post western world.

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Nora Fisher Onar: A world in which the relative economic policy of the United States led West as an eclipse so to be clear, not the absolute economic pharmacy relatively in terms of proportion of global GDP.

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Nora Fisher Onar: Control by Western versus non western regions, this is what is an eclipse especially these these emerging reemerging actors and after Eurasia like China.

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Nora Fisher Onar: Meanwhile, western military power remains preponderant and Western cultural power which is reverberating for centuries around the globe, will continue to shape our frameworks for being and doing for generations.

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Nora Fisher Onar: And unless you live in an age when anxieties relative economic eclipse have been exacerbated by a tragic global pandemic.

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Nora Fisher Onar: When folks in the United States, Europe have experienced some of the existential for clarity, it has long been familiar to many people from the global South.

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Nora Fisher Onar: anxieties about this experience of relative eclipse in turn have contributed to politics of fear in the west of politics based on demonizing proceed economic, military and cultural threats to Western primacy.

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Nora Fisher Onar: This semester's Davies, however emanates from an alternative perspective, our goal has been to better understand.

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Nora Fisher Onar: The circle sources, the current modalities the unfolding trajectories of reemergence of gravity was questioning the idea of centeredness all together.

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Nora Fisher Onar: toward this end and very much inspired by the twin babies mandy and fostering interdisciplinary conversation and ethical leadership.

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Nora Fisher Onar: We have developed a dissenting methodology inspired by postcolonial theory and predicated on three analytical moves.

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Nora Fisher Onar: First move is to seek to prevent july's long standing assumptions about the significance of the West and the significance of the rest.

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Nora Fisher Onar: Second we've sought to engage alternative perspectives these insights from other disciplines beyond the global or post Western international relations, or I our space which structures, our syllabus.

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Nora Fisher Onar: but also to listen to insights from the ground and other world regions from Africa or Asia to Ghana, which has been the subject of much of our work today to Latin America which hosts unsettled knowledge is that we will be learning about today.

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Nora Fisher Onar: Finally, our goal by this concerted exercise in interdisciplinary multi regional provincialism engagement is reconstruction.

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Nora Fisher Onar: You see, to reconstruct is an ethos and a practice, the commitment to learning from the great plurality of our planet and reconstruction and concrete.

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Nora Fisher Onar: By final projects would they be students are developing the Semester, you must they're applying our D century toolkit for visualizing engagement and reconstruction.

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Nora Fisher Onar: Two questions about that which they are passionate in the respective disciplinary homes.

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Nora Fisher Onar: deals with range from finance and macroeconomics history, music and the performing arts from nursing to philosophy from entrepreneurship to environmental sociological and, of course, international studies.

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Nora Fisher Onar: And so, to help us round up this journey I couldn't be more delighted and honored to be working our closing keynote speaker I think our who's intellectual production and activism.

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Nora Fisher Onar: has many respects made this whole endeavor possible I remember vividly when, as a graduate student I first read Dr chickens piece for the journal millennium on seeing ir differently notes from the Third World, my jaw literally hit the floor on metaphorically.

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Nora Fisher Onar: I was young, then as now by her ability to articulate with exceptional clarity and compassion and intuition and challenge with which I and hundreds of other aspiring scholars situated and non core anonymous settings that was not in San Francisco at the time.

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Nora Fisher Onar: She was able to name and grapple with the challenge with which we had all been grappling mainly the fact that our discipline.

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Nora Fisher Onar: In particular, and our academic apparatus more broadly had been instructed by the West for the West, including available to reverse of potential insights.

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Nora Fisher Onar: And so began and engagement of Dr techniques, expensive and transformative the countless academic publications and public opinion pieces, but she has authored.

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Nora Fisher Onar: Before which she has convened the scholars who she has fostered and invaluable conceptual empirical and pedagogical layers to the project of diversifying are ways of knowing and acting in the world.

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Nora Fisher Onar: Now this long as publications is the textbook which we have been using all semester published in 2020.

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Nora Fisher Onar: And co editor with Karen Smith on international relations, from the global South world of difference building, of course, on his seminal 2010 publication for the Weber on internationalization scholarship around the world.

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Nora Fisher Onar: And now a new piece for international studies review on weaving worlds, which deploys the image of women's work weaving cloth across Latin American context.

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Nora Fisher Onar: As a metaphor and practice, for I quote envisaging alternative ways of relating to each other.

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Nora Fisher Onar: piece, which proves what a posture of openness and the recognition of deep relation ality can bring to our relations or brick can bring to our meetings of the world.

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Nora Fisher Onar: And so, without further ado i'd like to turn the floor over to Dr techniques will speak for 30 minutes after which will pivot to a Q amp a which I will moderate.

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Nora Fisher Onar: That the r&b technique is professor of international political and urban studies at the university that they rosario in Bogota, Colombia, forgive me, I don't speak Spanish.

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Nora Fisher Onar: Her work has transformed the way we think about and teaching her ass relations by for grounding perspectives from the global South especially Latin America, she also writes a weekly newspaper column the Colombian daily a speak Mandarin.

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Nora Fisher Onar: Particularly the floor is yours.

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Arlene Tickner: Thank you and good afternoon, thank you Nora for that overly generous introduction, I think.

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Arlene Tickner: yeah I think you overstate, to a large degree, both my work and my influence, but i'm so grateful to be here and so happy to be sharing this space with you, which I find fascinating and important for many reasons.

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Arlene Tickner: I am going to share my screen.

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Arlene Tickner: which I cannot Maybe someone can enable me to share it on because it says that I am yeah.

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Arlene Tickner: My talk, which is going to be 30 minutes, hopefully, is called unsettling i'm going to call it, instead of unsettled and your and your and your understand why, in a minute knowledge is and Latin America.

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Arlene Tickner: there's many ways that I could have gone about introducing this topic, the first perhaps the for reasons of justice, the need to tap into marginal.

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Arlene Tickner: invisible eyes knowledge is in regions of the global South such as Latin America, but given the situation that we are currently living in the world and nora's fantastic introduction, the way that I would like to enter this discussion.

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Arlene Tickner: is essentially.

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Arlene Tickner: The following my screen sharing is pause for some reason that the entryway is is the existential crisis that I believe we all know, was going on, but that the pandemic has has has put in front of us with a force that perhaps.

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Arlene Tickner: We weren't prepared for, and I think this is unimportant segue into talking about why.

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Arlene Tickner: Alternative and, in this case unsettling knowledge is might be something worthwhile exploring as a way to think through these issues so essentially what i'd like to do is introduce the topic.

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Arlene Tickner: via this entry point of an existential crisis that I believe, none of us.

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Arlene Tickner: are in a capacity to deny ask how we might go about dealing with this and try to point to the potentials of these unsettling knowledge is, which I will try to define afterwards in Latin America.

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Arlene Tickner: As one way of talking and thinking about this and I will end, probably pointing to some of the pitfalls to that I see in seeking out.

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Arlene Tickner: Sub alternate alternative you know non Western knowledge is as a panacea, or a solution to the types of crises that we currently face on a planetary level.

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Arlene Tickner: So if we think about what's going on in the world today and I don't think I need to take too much time to talk through this.

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Arlene Tickner: I believe that we could all agree that we are facing an undeniable existential and planetary crisis while indeed the pandemic.

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Arlene Tickner: put this in front of us in a way that perhaps other issues have not, we could talk about a number of different signs that something is going wrong.

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Arlene Tickner: on the planet, that we need to probably attend to and, obviously, the first issue is the destruction of Mother Earth global warming, the crisis of the ecosystem, which as we know, has a strong relation to.

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Arlene Tickner: Problems such as as the pandemic but i'd also like to mention a number of other issues that.

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Arlene Tickner: are receiving increased discussion and conversation, not only within academia, but I think in different countries where these things are going on to begin with structural violence is.

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Arlene Tickner: rooted in issues such as race, gender class ethnicity and sexuality.

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Arlene Tickner: are in our face, I think, in a way that makes it impossible, at least not to discuss them, we could talk about a range of issues.

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Arlene Tickner: But, starting with the case of the United States and police brutality directed against people of color I believe that it would be impossible to.

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Arlene Tickner: Ignore and deny that there's distinct types of violence is that not only haven't gone away, but that actually potentially have increased in recent years.

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Arlene Tickner: inequalities within and between countries are also on the rise and stand to be aggravated as a result of the pandemic.

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Arlene Tickner: Much of this for many critical authors is rooted in the crisis of liberal democracy and neoliberal globalization, which is a whole nother facet of the existential crisis that we would be good talk about.

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Arlene Tickner: And underlying all of this are a number of colonial logics that have not gone away, notwithstanding, you know the decolonization.

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Arlene Tickner: Formally, of the world and, finally, you know as I started the coven 19 pandemic and so, essentially, we have a number of issues that pose a serious challenge to the ways in which we have been living with.

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Arlene Tickner: An in the cosmos for some time, and I think this lends itself to the question, excuse me, of how we work through this and and Just to quote many an author much more insightful than me.

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Arlene Tickner: I think we could respond that it would be impossible to imagine alternatives to this crisis, and I do believe that we require alternatives urgently.

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Arlene Tickner: as a means of.

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Arlene Tickner: as a means of trying to work through what is going on i'm not sure what's going on here i've lost control of the screen.

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Nora Fisher Onar: um when I wasn't use that you mentioned that your slides were stuck so i'd put on the I started sharing the slides on this thing if that helps the didn't want to interrupt you.

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Arlene Tickner: It works just it worked.

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Nora Fisher Onar: No Okay, then I will, I will start to.

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Arlene Tickner: happen well It happened once but it.

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Arlene Tickner: Was it okay.

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Arlene Tickner: nevermind sorry.

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Arlene Tickner: it's Okay, nor did you yeah, let me just maximize my screen or you're going yeah there's strange things going on here, but this we can all see this right yeah it's working okay.

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Arlene Tickner: So.

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Arlene Tickner: Essentially, the idea is that it would be impossible to imagine alternatives which, again, I think we can agree are sorely needed.

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Arlene Tickner: Using the same ideas and practices that created the existential crisis we are going through in the first place.

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Arlene Tickner: Indeed, many note that humanity is essentially doomed, which is a term that I would like to avoid using but i'm quoting.

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Arlene Tickner: If we don't change somehow our way of being after this pandemic and I just wanted to point to an example it's got me thinking recently based upon what's going on with the vaccines many.

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Arlene Tickner: Many and authority has said that the development of the vaccine and record time could inevitably be considered a huge scientific success.

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Arlene Tickner: And yet, from the, the head of the World Health Organization on word many warn that the world faces a catastrophic moral failure due to uneven distribution.

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Arlene Tickner: And I think what this points to is the fact that the vaccine is is is not a solution, per se, to the existential crisis that we're living but as simply a means to continue going on as if nothing were happening.

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Arlene Tickner: And I think if we were to talk more widely about the crisis of the ecosystem, we could observe something similar.

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Arlene Tickner: there's solutions at hand to try to slow the process of global warming to try to slow the process of environmental degradation, but we're really not.

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Arlene Tickner: In a capacity, yet I think as as humanity to start thinking about you know how to go about changing our ways of being and living with an idea, creating profound and alternative types of change and wording.

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Arlene Tickner: I think one way of going about thinking this through is precisely to tap into different ways of being in and thinking about the world that today, at least for many are not recognizable as science proper.

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Arlene Tickner: And that are probably incommensurate in many ways, with the customary ways in which we talk about think about the world relations and politics.

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Arlene Tickner: This is very much you know, a de colonial post colonial non Western type of position, but I think that we have to go beyond kind of the critiques provided by the series to tap into precisely what it might mean.

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Arlene Tickner: To work with these alternatives, with an eye to discussing how we might be in in with the world in a different way.

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Arlene Tickner: So the way that i'd like to go about posing this conversation is via some types of thinking that I have worked through in Latin America, some more current mostly.

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Arlene Tickner: much older, I think, Latin America is an interesting case to look at for several reasons and i've been thinking through how to post this in a convincing way.

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Arlene Tickner: Latin America to me occupies a curious in between space that one doesn't observe generally in much or in the rest, indeed of the global South it's early decolonization.

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Arlene Tickner: kind contrasts with neo colonial relations with the United States and indeed I think one could say that the closeness the proximity to the United States.

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Arlene Tickner: The fact that it's relations have been characterized in this way, notwithstanding the fact that it colonize much earlier than the rest of the South.

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Arlene Tickner: means that it's thinking has very much been attuned to these type of asymmetrical relations of domination, with the United States.

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Arlene Tickner: Second there's an interesting contrast in the region between what many would think of as a successful messy sad hate or mixing.

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Arlene Tickner: versus what I think I would call a typical case of settler colonialism, which is a term that most analysts in the Latin American context.

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Arlene Tickner: are reluctant to use to describe the types of colonial relations prevalent here, and yet if one looks at relations between.

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Arlene Tickner: Either whites or misty social and indigenous and Afro descendant communities, I think they are very typical to those that want observes in other contexts of settler colonialism, such as the United States.

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Arlene Tickner: And finally, one notices in Latin America kind of attention, or an ambiguity between its identification with the West.

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Arlene Tickner: As a region that decriminalized early or earlier and identification with the South.

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Arlene Tickner: And I think this plays out in different strands original thinking and I just want to highlight two one I will talk about one I will net.

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Arlene Tickner: The region has made significant contributions to a number of conventional realms.

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Arlene Tickner: of thought and practice in international law regionalism trade, human rights and others.

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Arlene Tickner: But at the same time, I think one could say that it's been a key site for transformative theory and practice, and here I want to mention dependency theory which traveled worldwide, one of the only cases that I know of.

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Arlene Tickner: Other thinking derived largely from a peripheral contexts that ends up traveling northward liberation thinking which I will talk about, and more recently Latin American decode geology.

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Arlene Tickner: And finally, obviously it is also a region that hosts numerous and diverse diverse indigenous an Afro descendant communities whose role as legitimate no worse has oftentimes been ignored.

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Arlene Tickner: And so what i'm going to try to do is focus on liberation thinking and what I will call indigenous and Afro descendant really nationality as unsettling knowledge is that one might.

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Arlene Tickner: find interesting to look into in in Latin America, I want to try to explain why I call them unsettling knowledge is, and here I would just like to gesture to a book chapter that I have co authored.

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Arlene Tickner: With my yeah katie has to a professor at the University Antioquia and megan was currently a fellow at aberystwyth University on what we call unsettling knowledge is in Latin America for a an edited volume on global ir in Latin America.

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Arlene Tickner: We call them unsettling knowledge is for several reasons, first because we think that they are disruptive of categories and assumptions.

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Arlene Tickner: through which we normally make sense of the world and and and and and then their disruption they're also resistant to inclusion on equal terms, at least within.

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Arlene Tickner: The onto epistemological frameworks of liberal pruitt pluralism.

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Arlene Tickner: Second they're all knowledge is contrary to scientific notions of objectivity and neutrality, they actually take sides, politically and socially with marginal silence and oppressed social actors that we normally wouldn't consider.

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Arlene Tickner: A legitimate sources of knowledge or legitimate sources of solutions to many of the problems faced by these very same actors.

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Arlene Tickner: And finally they're unsettling because we think that they encourage other ways of being in and with the world.

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Arlene Tickner: That actually lend themselves to unfamiliar forms of knowing that are oftentimes linked to bodily experiences this customarily creates what some others have called s epistemic discomfort.

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Arlene Tickner: in the sense that those of us who are not accustomed to thinking, but through the head are discomforted when confronted with types of knowing that are actually bodily.

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Arlene Tickner: expressed and that derive not only nor primarily from the head, but from places such as the body, the heart the stomach etc.

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Arlene Tickner: I see personally, the key to change being rooted largely in the identification of this type of discomfort and the acting upon it as a way of trying to learn or unlearn to be more precise.

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Arlene Tickner: The ways in which we have been accustomed to think about the world so having said that, I would like to go through, really, really briefly.

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Arlene Tickner: What I would call liberation thinking and indigenous and Afro descendant relation ality I can't do justice to either of them, obviously in such a short time, so please forgive me beforehand the superficial reality with which I will necessarily have to talk about both.

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Arlene Tickner: I see liberation thinking as a combination of liberation theology.

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Arlene Tickner: liberation philosophy liberation pedagogy and liberation methodology which I was I just put together as liberation thinking and obviously it's rooted in liberation theology of the 1960s.

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Arlene Tickner: And just to remind those who are not familiar with this theology this.

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Arlene Tickner: represented a radical shift in both a vocation and the practice of the Catholic Church, with the most transformative repercussions and expressions within Latin America.

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Arlene Tickner: One of the main ideas of this shift was the preferential option for the poor, which essentially lent itself to the idea that the church needed to.

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Arlene Tickner: take sides because God takes sides with those oppressed peoples in the world to act in solidarity with them with an idea to reject to redress injustice suffering and systemic violence.

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Arlene Tickner: Now, obviously I think many will find and have discussed parallels with the current Pope Francis go.

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Arlene Tickner: With this this idea um he indeed was deeply affected many say by liberation theology, so perhaps the Catholic Church is trying to go back to some of this.

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Arlene Tickner: The point is that this lends itself to distinct strands of philosophical pedagogical and methodological thinking which, I believe, had a.

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Arlene Tickner: profound impact and continue to do so on conversations about taking sides and about how to do methodologies, with an eye to seeking out things like emancipation liberation transformation.

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Arlene Tickner: In particular siding with the poor and the oppressed also means privileging situated knowledge is, which is a term that many critical theorists use.

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Arlene Tickner: originating from the lived experiences of oppressed invisible marginalized groups.

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Arlene Tickner: I find it very interesting to note that this is very much akin to feminist standpoint epistemology and methodology, as proposed by authors, such as Sandra harding.

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Arlene Tickner: And in conversations with Sandra, who is a colleague and a friend, when I noticed the similarity she laughed and said well obviously standpoint, you know feminist standpoint wasn't the only.

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Arlene Tickner: strand of thinking at the time to notice and to identify and to act upon the importance.

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Arlene Tickner: Of situated knowledge is so, in fact, we have a number of different currents of thinking around the world, actually, including in Latin America tapping into.

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Arlene Tickner: The importance of live have lived experiences are different kinds, in particular, have subordinate actors as a source of potentially transformative.

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Arlene Tickner: and useful and meaningful knowledge and so essentially the visibility of disadvantage Sam points and epistemic epidemic violence derived from colonial logics racism and patriarchy suggest.

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Arlene Tickner: Under this umbrella of liberation thinking that for reasons of fairness, first and foremost because they've been ignored because of violence has been executed upon them.

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Arlene Tickner: and also for understanding problems differently, these should potentially be given epidemic.

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Arlene Tickner: Priority this doesn't mean by any means that liberation thinking or standpoint epistemology from feminism.

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Arlene Tickner: advocates epistemological relativism meaning anything goes that's not the argument, the argument is that, given the visibility of these forums of situated knowledge they should be given the chance to analyze.

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Arlene Tickner: different problems, based upon their own lived experiences and who knows, maybe they might offer alternative ways of thinking through problems that modern western sciences, have been unable to grapple with is essentially the idea.

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Arlene Tickner: I just wanted to note two examples of liberation thinking which are probably the most famous powerful phrases pedagogy of the oppressed.

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Arlene Tickner: And Orlando files borders i'm going to call it methodology of liberation sent deep and Sunday, which is the term that i'm going to come back to in a moment.

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Arlene Tickner: which was popularized in the social sciences as participatory action research, as we all know.

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Arlene Tickner: This has become fashionable in different strands of the social sciences, but also has been adopted, increasingly by distinct international institutions.

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Arlene Tickner: In recognition of the importance of tapping into local knowledge is of empowering local actors with an eye to resolving not only local problems but eventually global ones as well.

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Arlene Tickner: Both of these interestingly, are rooted in the need to build inclusive and emancipator acknowledges in which marginalized actors are the main protagonists.

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Arlene Tickner: I see this, both as liberating knowledge is derived from a coming together of academic and popular wisdoms.

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Arlene Tickner: plus a transformative power acquired by marginalized groups through what phrase originally called quantum cnc saskatoon.

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Arlene Tickner: My little image at the bottom that says nothing about us without us essentially points to the the limitations of knowledge, building and Problem Solving efforts that don't include.

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Arlene Tickner: Those who are directly affected by the problems that we are trying to understand and to solve, and so this is very much an actor inclusive.

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Arlene Tickner: You know method and pedagogy which seeks to empower those who have been marginalized throughout history as a result of colonial types of logics.

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Arlene Tickner: And ultimately, what files board that in particular points to, and this is something that's been picked up increasingly in the colonial thinking today.

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Arlene Tickner: Is the need to do colonized academic practice what I want to point out here is that the colonial thinking which is quite recent.

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Arlene Tickner: You know wasn't the first to propose the need to do colonize the Academy, this is something very much rooted in the 1960s and the 1970s, that we're now coming back to.

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Arlene Tickner: So this is my first example, the second is what I would call again indigenous and alpha descendant relation ality.

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Arlene Tickner: While liberation thinking is rooted in an in the idea that the marginalized be empowered through common cnc sassy own consciousness building an epidemic privilege.

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Arlene Tickner: It turns out that the struggles of oppressed peoples, and I think the Atlanta acknowledgement that we just heard at the beginning, is quite Indicative of this are not just epistemological in nature.

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Arlene Tickner: But are also very much ontological it's not just a question of poverty, inequality.

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Arlene Tickner: political recognition and inclusion, but actually the right of distinct communities to enjoy all other forms of existence that processes of colonialism and colonialism have been have denied them.

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Arlene Tickner: So essentially my argument here is going to be the distinct ancestral people's.

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Arlene Tickner: exhibit a devalued a diversity of worldviews and lived experiences and historical claims that we would be tremendously hard pressed.

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Arlene Tickner: to compare and to put into a single category and that's certainly not my intention and, indeed, I believe that the harshest example of this, which is not comparable to any other.

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Arlene Tickner: Is the painful the deeply painful uprooting emotionally spiritually physically etc of African descendants via the slave trade and repeatedly thereafter.

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Arlene Tickner: So, by no means do I intend to suggest that these different groups of peoples in all their diversity can be compared.

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Arlene Tickner: And yet I do believe that the shared experiences of colonialism make loose comparison possible and I see two areas in which this comparison.

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Arlene Tickner: is potentially useful first and what I would call the hijacking of existence colonialism and colonialism, among other things, tonight distinct marginalized communities, their right to exist on their own terms.

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Arlene Tickner: And secondly, i'd like to refer to what many of called including native American authors, the wounds of separation, the first wound of separation being from the land, which I put it in quotations intentionally, for reasons which I will now explained and others.

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Arlene Tickner: At the root of all of this is what I would call a shared relational ontology.

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Arlene Tickner: and by this I mean to suggest that these specific communities experience existence.

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Arlene Tickner: relate to the world understand their role in and with the world indistinct and relational ways so i'd like to just described very briefly what I understand by a relational intelligence it's not what I understand is what scholars understand.

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Arlene Tickner: As expressed by these communities first entities and beings come into existence and are transformed through relations.

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Arlene Tickner: relations are what make people and other beings what they are, and we are constantly being transformed through these relations.

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Arlene Tickner: This essentially means that everything in the cosmos is related nothing can be considered to exist on its own.

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Arlene Tickner: And, but precisely as a result of relations characterized by constant interaction and change.

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Arlene Tickner: And so the the the the intention in western modality, which we'll get back to in a second to fix things to ascribe fixed meanings to things.

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Arlene Tickner: is something that's ultimately not recognized within a relational ontology that sees things as beings that are in constant transformation.

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Arlene Tickner: And this essentially means that a relational ontology also questions the binary mode of existence, which is typical in.

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Arlene Tickner: The modern western i'm going to call it Cosmo vision we normally refer to this as metaphysics but i'm going to demote metaphysics to Cosmo vision which is how we describe actually all the other ways of approaching existence that are different from the West.

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Arlene Tickner: The next point is that given this interconnectedness equal value is actually attributed to all beings both human and otherwise natural spiritual etc.

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Arlene Tickner: And all of these have will all have interests in all ultimately a spirit and all depending upon the specific relational ontology we're talking about have the capacity of personhood.

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Arlene Tickner: Finally, when we talk about these popular notions of Wayne BV overview bn which are evidence in the constitution's for example of Ecuador.

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Arlene Tickner: and Bolivia, these are ideas that are premised on the need, given all of the above, to care for all beings in the cosmos.

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Arlene Tickner: And rooted in the recognition that all of these can become not only people, but political agents and I just want to stress that this is very different from ascribing political rights to nature.

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Arlene Tickner: As appears and the constitution's of the two countries that i've just mentioned.

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Arlene Tickner: Just to give you three ideas, not necessarily rooted only in Latin America, I just want to point to three different notions of relational ontology.

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Arlene Tickner: To suggest that we're not just talking about Latin America we're not just talking about indigenous communities, but actually we're talking about.

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Arlene Tickner: Ways of existing that are prevalent throughout the globe So here we have yin Yang from Confucianism or taoism.

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Arlene Tickner: In that cage which I will not pronounce correctly from the Maya in Central America and a boon to from the southern African context, all in their distinct ways reflect precisely the interconnectedness the codependence the complementarity, that is evidenced in all relational ontology.

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Arlene Tickner: I just want to contrast this very quickly with what many have called the ontology of separation characteristic of.

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Arlene Tickner: modern western Cosmo vision and i'm not going to go through this lovely picture, but i'm leaving my presentation, for those who want to look at it more carefully.

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Arlene Tickner: This is a Cosmo vision characterized essentially the box in the middle it's called box head the box in the middle is discard to discard this famous saying, I think, therefore, I am.

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Arlene Tickner: And here the idea is that this very act of identifying human existence, based upon the separation of the mind from the you know from from the body of.

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Arlene Tickner: human culture and human society from nature is the first step towards this.

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Arlene Tickner: view of the world rooted in separation, so I would describe this Cosmo vision in terms of separation not codependence mutually exclusive opposites not opposites that are mutually dependent and mutually nurturing and here we have mind body nature, culture, human non human etc.

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Arlene Tickner: And finally, the.

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Arlene Tickner: In Finally, the idea that opposite is equal to inferior and thus susceptible to domination and control and indeed many critical scholars have associated this impulse to domination and control characteristic of the modern West to the ontology of separation that i've just described.

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Arlene Tickner: So, having said this, I would just like to go very briefly into three different repercussions of relation ality that that that that one could say are prevalent in both indigenous and effort ascendant.

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Arlene Tickner: approaches to relational ontology these are these are spirituality territoriality and embodied knowledge.

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Arlene Tickner: spirituality as practice by many communities is much more than a set of religious beliefs, we normally demote spirituality to religion.

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Arlene Tickner: ascribing to it a category more recognizable within a modern western context, but in fact it means much more than that, it means essentially kind of activity with the cosmos and a vibrant caring relation with all beings.

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Arlene Tickner: Including the departed and one of its main goals is to maintain balance and harmony, so this is something that's very deeply felt and practiced by the communities that I mentioned.

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Arlene Tickner: territoriality refers, obviously, to the land, but land here is not just a source of material sustenance although obviously it is that too.

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Arlene Tickner: But actually of cosmic balance spirituality and connection with ancestors, something that I find quite interesting is the way the different indigenous communities refer to.

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Arlene Tickner: The land, not just as to law but, as only very so meaning land is the universe, it is the grounding.

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Arlene Tickner: upon which existence itself takes place and the land is something that's alive, that is thinking that is feeling, and that is more than the subject of rights.

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Arlene Tickner: And essentially when we look at the experiences of colonialism and and a colonial at what we have observed immediately is you know the ways in which dispossession of land.

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Arlene Tickner: And the thing of occasion of land typical of a modern western mindset have created deep wounds of separation that relation ality seeks to obviously address and to cure.

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Arlene Tickner: Finally, notions of territoriality imply caring relations with the territory, and here I do see these as being key aspects of the constitution's in Ecuador in Bolivia.

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Arlene Tickner: and other legal decisions in different parts of Latin America, including Columbia.

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Arlene Tickner: In which, for instance, that you are Toronto has been considered rights and were different natural actors have been deemed victims of the armed conflict with the right to receive reparations, which I find something that's absolutely fascinating.

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Arlene Tickner: Finally, and i'm just rushing through this to not take too much more time, the idea of embodied knowledge now, I mentioned that files border.

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Arlene Tickner: The founder of what we now call participatory action research was often described as a 70 pin Sunday.

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Arlene Tickner: And with this what was suggested was that possible or that and this type of methodology liberation methodology.

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Arlene Tickner: deemed knowledge, not only to derive from the thinking head, but also from you know, a political commitment to social transformation and emancipation.

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Arlene Tickner: More recent concepts of embodied knowledge, such as sent deep inside and Cosmo practices more recent in the sense that.

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Arlene Tickner: they've always been around as practice by these communities, but academia, has just only recently begun to talk about them underscore a little bit more.

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Arlene Tickner: sense deep inside, which today is quite fashionable amongst among others on feminist scholars within Latin America.

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Arlene Tickner: underscores the role of the body and have feelings as key sides of knowledge, and here I have under a picture to describe this the idea here is that embodied.

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Arlene Tickner: feeling carrying spiritual noses that are ultimately committed to emancipation and transformation cannot only be hosted by the brain and here expression, such as thinking heart reflect this idea and so here the image is how to attune.

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Arlene Tickner: are thinking head with our feeling heart with an eye to creating the types of feeling knowledge is deem necessary to create you know.

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Arlene Tickner: relations that are healthy with the cosmos if not social you know meaningful change.

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Arlene Tickner: The second idea which I i've tried to start working through with a Maya katie has to my co author on another piece.

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Arlene Tickner: Is Cosmo practices which very much derives from the Bolivian I might have context, but I think it's essentially applicable to other relational communities as well.

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Arlene Tickner: And here the idea is even deeper it reflects the relatedness and circularity not only of the head and the heart, but actually of being feeling knowing and doing in kind of a circular constant motion in which, as we go through the world.

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Arlene Tickner: As we adapt practices and relations in the world, we adopt certain types of knowledge as as well.

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Arlene Tickner: And this leads us to think and it's something that i'd like to think through a lot more in subsequent works is that ideas.

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Arlene Tickner: Such as ontology epistemology and methodology which we see in western mind says as discreet and separate categories shouldn't be considered separate but actually related the idea of cosmic practice, and do you suggest that these three moments are deeply interconnected, if not circular.

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Arlene Tickner: So, having said this, I just want to point out, and with this i'm going to reach the end of my talk several pitfalls of you know interest in and work with unsettling knowledge is.

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Arlene Tickner: As practiced by those of us critical scholars, who are interested in these things.

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Arlene Tickner: Increasingly, we turn we have turned to indigenous aboriginal ancestral knowledge is and methodologies as potential solutions.

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Arlene Tickner: To the problems that we face, and I think nate many native American and aboriginal scholar has pointed out that this most definitely is not the role.

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Arlene Tickner: That indigenous knowledge is and methodologies should fulfill, no one is going to save us from the predicament, and which we and by we I mean essentially the West.

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Arlene Tickner: Have gotten ourselves into, so this is something to be aware of the second pitfall is that the addition of these alternative no house and their thinkers.

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Arlene Tickner: Rarely seeks to dismantle what I would call the ontological and epistemological hegemony of the modern western world, and so, essentially, adding new thinking without actually.

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Arlene Tickner: seeking out the the undoing of this a Gemini constitutes cooperation and and and recognition, but never deep transformation.

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Arlene Tickner: Third exclusionary or saving forms of recognition and by this I mean this kind of computation or this time type of translation that renamed things in terms of recognizable by modern western mindsets.

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Arlene Tickner: essentially constitutes a form of exclusion that reinforces colonial logics.

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Arlene Tickner: And finally, and this I say to myself, as well as to other critical scholars simply being a feminist a post colonial or D colonial or any other form of critical scholar.

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Arlene Tickner: doesn't free us from our complicity and structures of exclusion and oppression, if indeed what i'm suggesting is is accurate.

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Arlene Tickner: And so, and then with this i'm reaching my conclusion, how do we go about thinking and doing otherwise, which is something that i've actually given much thought to and continue to think about.

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Arlene Tickner: In my work terms such as ecology of knowledge is or multi epistemic conversation.

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Arlene Tickner: constitute I think experiments in being speaking knowing and doing with not for so here one of the keys is to envision how to strike up conversations across worlds or across the poor reverse a term that were used in her kind introduction that don't.

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Arlene Tickner: That don't revert into the types of computation strategies that many a scholar has alerted to.

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Arlene Tickner: I think, also increasingly it's acknowledged.

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Arlene Tickner: That being and knowing locally and from below, is an important starting point for thinking and doing otherwise many a scholar has talked about knowledge is from below.

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Arlene Tickner: and building up locally, but indeed if one looks around and thinks about distinct knowing and being experiments in relation to.

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Arlene Tickner: The environment in relation to other problems faced by humans in general, one sees that many i'm hopeful and interesting things are going on, and so this is something else that one would point to.

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Arlene Tickner: Third, something that one of the previous speakers in this in this series Linda to me why Smith, points out the need to adapt a position of relational accountability.

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Arlene Tickner: In her indigenous methodology she talks quite a lot about this, and this essentially means that as researchers, we have to be accountable to our relations.

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Arlene Tickner: Not only with research subjects, this is something I think that liberation thinking speaks quite a lot about, but also to the cosmos most generally.

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Arlene Tickner: This entails also an effective exercise by no means an intellectual one in D schooling ourselves from those things that we thought that we knew with certainty.

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Arlene Tickner: And I think this is one of the main causes of the discomfort that I referred to at the beginning.

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Arlene Tickner: And finally, this leads me to the idea that meaningful and relevant knowledge, this may mean something tremendously different from what we learn and teach today.

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Arlene Tickner: And so the invitation is to keep an openness to things that we might not immediately nor customer.

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Arlene Tickner: Customer really recognize as knowledge and with this I reached the end, to paraphrase our total Escobar I think the challenge is to make the unthinkable thinkable.

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Arlene Tickner: To make the thinkable believable and to make the believable possible, and this is kind of a cliche.

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Arlene Tickner: picture of the separatists that idea that altar mondo is perceived lay on the on the Cape on toes those models, but I think it continues to speak quite potently to the challenges and to the possibilities that thinking otherwise actually offers us thank you.

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Nora Fisher Onar: Thank you so much for this tour de force that is truly truly eye opening and I think, maybe the best summary of.

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Nora Fisher Onar: The juxtaposition his death, the position between sort of relational Cosmo cosmology the thinking and being differently in the world is you'll put it.

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Nora Fisher Onar: With the sort of Cartesian was the metaphysics i've ever heard that Iraq, therefore, you suck approach to.

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Nora Fisher Onar: To the universe, and so this was you know tremendous amount of food for thought and I would like to invite our audience to plug questions into the Q amp a.

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Nora Fisher Onar: I will be able to convey your questions to the speaker and I know that some of our students have prepared some wonderful questions, but just to get started, because there was so much in there to explore, one thing that you know you talked about in this sort of.

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Nora Fisher Onar: mapping of what a relational ontology relational worldview.

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Nora Fisher Onar: Look looks like in and book you're talking in your written work and you call for sort of you know, committing to kind of a deep relation ality right a relational that involves these accountabilities relational originality that involves.

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Nora Fisher Onar: getting out of one's comfort zone and finding oneself in spaces, where where one's own for the foundational assumptions or knowledge may be calling call them with question and I wonder in some of your work you're in a recent publication, for example with.

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Nora Fisher Onar: My view you've mentioned at the University of our sweat now and.

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Nora Fisher Onar: Visiting fellow and based in Latin America as well on a permanent basis, as I understand, she and you've talked about the you've told stories about.

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Nora Fisher Onar: The experience of several indigenous communities in in producing a weaving and and the ways that their relationship with the with the textiles embody and embrace these types of very powerful.

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Nora Fisher Onar: sort of cosmological relationships that we can learn from, and I wonder if you could give some of those examples, because they're very, very good ways of explaining.

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Nora Fisher Onar: The illustrating the stories that but, in the framework that you set forth for us, so I just invite you to share some of those examples, perhaps.

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Nora Fisher Onar: I think it was the result, particularly the Camorra text times.

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Arlene Tickner: yeah.

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Arlene Tickner: So just just to preface that.

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Arlene Tickner: So.

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Arlene Tickner: i'll try to preface it with the following idea so.

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Arlene Tickner: Once one once one accepts that that that the problems of difference in conversation are not just epistemological.

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Arlene Tickner: But ontological, meaning that we actually have different worlds created through different ways of being in and with the cosmos.

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Arlene Tickner: One of the challenges that at least the scholarly world faces is how to converse with and across that ontological difference in terms that are both respectful and caring.

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Arlene Tickner: But they're also accepting of the existential assumptions of those other worlds, and this is something quite difficult because at least i'm happy to admit.

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Arlene Tickner: That i'm a very much a modern western molded subject and so getting out of one's head is very hard.

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Arlene Tickner: And so, with a minor katie how so we tried to do an exercise from the heart, which is the first difficulty in which we tried to envision if not a method.

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Arlene Tickner: What we call a relational sensibility Nora and the beginning of her presentation talked about the the toolkit that she and her students have been developing over the Semester.

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Arlene Tickner: We find the idea of toolkit itself problematic because it poses the idea that, if we adapt.

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Arlene Tickner: You know the appropriate strategies decent during you know, etc, etc now we're going to be able to get you know to delve into these.

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Arlene Tickner: unexplored you know other worlds, and so what we tried to do with examples of weaving and with the metaphor of weaving was to suggest that essentially.

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Arlene Tickner: Given the appropriate mindset and sensibility anyone can adapt a deeply relational perspective, this is something that children that haven't been socialized into.

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Arlene Tickner: A modern western you know Cosmo vision do, quite naturally, and so the examples of weaving which are actually you know, indeed derived from indigenous efforts into communities in in Latin America.

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Arlene Tickner: Try to show you know how weaving could be considered a deep form of relation ality which we describe as Cosmo practice, but when you think about it, weaving is a universal practice adopted by people all over the world, and so what's interesting actually is to think that in weaving.

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Arlene Tickner: We actually do you know dismantle some of our prevention, some of our kind of you know, in our head.

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Arlene Tickner: Even if we're not indigenous and Afro descendant communities, but I can explain one of the examples which in many communities, and then the ones that we include in our article weaving is a cosmic performance, meaning that, in the act of weaving mostly women, but also men sometimes.

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Arlene Tickner: are both performing the cosmos but also co creating themselves in in harmony with the cosmos and so in the case of the chordoma textiles, which is in a case in Bolivia, a number of textiles were stolen.

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Arlene Tickner: And auctioned off in the United States, and so the story tries to go through how, through the help of different shaman is in Bolivia.

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Arlene Tickner: Communication was established with with the with the stolen weaving or textiles and how they were brought back through kind of a double act of modern state diplomacy and shamanic diplomacy in conversation.

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Arlene Tickner: With the textile souls, because these are these are essentially spirits and souls and people that have been stolen from the Community, and they created.

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Arlene Tickner: A disharmony a cosmic disharmony in the Community, and so we go through how they were recovered and how their recuperation lends itself to the reestablishment of cars of cosmic harmony in that community.

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Arlene Tickner: I don't know if with that i've gone on too long.

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Nora Fisher Onar: Not at all it's a it's such a powerful example that very much illustrates the the cosmic practice and its challenges and it's.

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Nora Fisher Onar: The demands that it makes upon those who who seek to engage in it to to develop a more sort of foundational inclusive imperialistic sort of practice and I do have a question from a student of ours.

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Nora Fisher Onar: for building on that you know, asking as we work towards inclusively to common practice.

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Nora Fisher Onar: How do we address the beneficiaries of the status quo, who don't care or who may approve opposed embracing new life relation ality and finding other ways of knowing so, for example, those who weren't the.

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Nora Fisher Onar: intended market for the stolen textiles in in the global North and but also you know, representatives of such practices, you know, in the global South as well, how do we.

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Nora Fisher Onar: How do we advance the Cosmo practice as a as a political project, as well as or is that in and of itself doing violence to get it to the whole undertaking.

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Arlene Tickner: um.

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Arlene Tickner: I think the political project is that of of of the colonizing.

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Arlene Tickner: I think, given this this is going to sound probably I mean this is going to sound very simplistic, but given the state of the world that I described at the beginning.

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Arlene Tickner: You know, and we could have added the situation and academia as well.

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Arlene Tickner: I think that I think that we have to fight against this crisis and and and essentially relation, you know relation ality is one means of envisioning an alternative I you know I wouldn't call it itself or Cosmo practice political but and yet when we speak about thinking feeling.

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Arlene Tickner: politically committed knowledge that take sides, we actually are talking about a political act.

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Arlene Tickner: I think in general Cosmo practice essentially poses the invitation to understand knowledge building exercises as something that cannot be understood in isolation of.

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Arlene Tickner: Our existential practices are going about the world as as as the defenders of the concepts suggest and so.

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Arlene Tickner: I think it's essentially I don't want to call it a method, because that would be reverting to, but I do think it is a method, it is a method for.

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Arlene Tickner: repairing the wounds of separation, that I believe we are all victims of because essentially you know, one of one of at the root of the success.

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Arlene Tickner: of a modern western Cosmo vision is it's universal ization and globalization, you know, there are many communities that do not practice it exclusively.

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Arlene Tickner: But indeed through processes such as colonization and colonialism sorry and globalization neoliberal globalization, it has actually become something universal, and so this is essentially a way of you know, going about.

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Arlene Tickner: Thinking of alternatives for being in and with the world more than anything else i'm not sure if i've answered that.

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Nora Fisher Onar: it's and it is a monument to that idea of practice as well, then sort of the fusion of the of the sexual and the logical with action oriented engagement and, in essence, we talked about you know the.

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Nora Fisher Onar: richness of Latin America as a site for for thinking through relational engagements and practices, could you speak to how these may retrograde and relational you know, in good relational form with forms of non binary thinking that made system, the West, you know, maybe, maybe oftentimes.

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Nora Fisher Onar: dominated by or render some are marginalized by more hegemonic sort of you know what you in your writing sometimes referred to some one world kind of.

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Nora Fisher Onar: sort of Western and layton enlightenment originated some you know Cartesian type of practice but there's also other sources, you know you talked about feminism and and.

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Nora Fisher Onar: queer theory in politics and little bit in your talk and certainly in your writing you know what our sources in the global North in the global west to engage in these sorts of relational conversations, they can also help to help to.

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Nora Fisher Onar: How to break the break the binaries that.

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Nora Fisher Onar: Do constrain so much of how we how we think and act.

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Arlene Tickner: well.

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Arlene Tickner: native American Communities are located physically North America, for example, and I believe I believe that some of the most enlightening scholarship.

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Arlene Tickner: On relation ality is coming from native American scholars, which I would insist that everyone read if we are to speak about relation ality.

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Arlene Tickner: I think something that we custom really do not do when, and I say this as a self critique as well, is to engage with those scholars and so again.

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Arlene Tickner: just referring to that little picture I put you know talking about these things without engaging with at least those scholars, you know.

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Arlene Tickner: who represent different forms of relation ality and who've at you know I think is is highly problematic and so.

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Arlene Tickner: it's already in the north, I think, when we talk about North and South we're talking to about mindsets but so.

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Arlene Tickner: That would just be one example, so native American Communities in the United States, I would say that I, you know, I would like to research, this more, but I, I believe that one could say.

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Arlene Tickner: That also on different Afro descendant communities um share, you know, a DS spork sensitivity that that that would lend itself to.

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Arlene Tickner: Talking about relation ality many of these communities located as well in the north um but even, and this is why I mentioned that you know I preface the explanation of textiles and weaving with the idea that you know, anyone can weave in many everyday practices.

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Arlene Tickner: From you know art to pottery to just being in nature to just feeling the wind pass through phase we are actually we actually do step outside momentarily of this one world world where we step outside of our heads and I think that the The goal is to to try to.

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Arlene Tickner: Train ourselves to be aware of those moments in ways that we normally are not, and so this is, this is why many scholars refer to D schooling.

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Arlene Tickner: And to desensitize ourselves to establish ways of doing things not only of knowing but of being because we're essentially talking about re establishing connections.

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Arlene Tickner: That you know, over the course of time, have been had been ruptured and broken, and this is most evident within you know the scientific world where we are supposed to be.

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Arlene Tickner: Absolutely isolated in our laboratories or studies from what goes on around us in the world and that actually doesn't happen in practice we pretend that it does so.

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Arlene Tickner: I think it's already there and I think the question is how to go about tapping into it, making it apparent and listening to it, listening to our different experiences.

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Nora Fisher Onar: And that sort of speaks to paint Thank you so much for that response, which also speaks to some questions that are that the q&a box and sort of in a general sense that I think we're.

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we're.

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Nora Fisher Onar: hearing from you know from the audiences are sort of seen as seeking guidance in terms of how to sort of conquer ties this and you know our.

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Nora Fisher Onar: In our actual practices and it does raise for me also a sort of a question that I I struggle with and have been figured out how to resolve in terms of.

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Nora Fisher Onar: So so.

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Nora Fisher Onar: For many of us, the only sort of pathway available to this sort of reconstructive practice would be through kind of our everyday activities, you know are sort of more.

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Nora Fisher Onar: or micro level engagements and yet the challenges that you know critical scholars and conversation i'll be and, as you mentioned some more problematic conversation with you know.

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Nora Fisher Onar: With those who was worldviews kind of providing some relational framework for dealing with the world the challenges is that is that the kind of the structures of silencing.

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Nora Fisher Onar: relational practices are systemic and for most of us don't we pathways available towards trying to pursue kind of a Cosmo practice that is more inclusive and.

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Nora Fisher Onar: And relational is a are more micro and scope, and you know there's this one and critique by the.

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Nora Fisher Onar: Puck and brag about the you know the conversations on a metaphor, but at the same time, you know, the ability to systematically.

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Nora Fisher Onar: You know it's one of the questions in the q&a asked you know, do you have an illustration of relational thinking being used to revisit our take on, it is demonic oppression substance of so excellent question but.

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Nora Fisher Onar: that's incredibly challenging to do so, how do we reconcile that tension about line so you know trivialize in any way the the importance of the project.

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Nora Fisher Onar: without necessarily having individualized capacities to be able to engage in sort of truly transformed, in fact, this, how do we deal with attention.

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Arlene Tickner: Well, I can I want to give two examples of so yeah I want to give two examples, so if one looks at earth jurisprudence and all of this discussion of rights of nature which isn't you know it's not a new conversation I mean the whole you know within the legal world ascribing legal rights.

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Arlene Tickner: To nature is something that's you know not not not tremendously new and yet, as I think it's the planetary crisis evolves as global warming gets worse, as you know.

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Arlene Tickner: As as as despair and you know Nx grows there's a growing willingness to strike up more robust conversations.

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Arlene Tickner: with different you know with different social actors that might have something to say about how to care better for the environment or for Mother Earth.

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Arlene Tickner: And so I think in terms of you know those conversations we actually are seeing an evolution.

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Arlene Tickner: And not just an alliance, you know, based upon the respect of interest for instance of environmental defenders and indigenous groups, etc, but actually a willingness to.

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Arlene Tickner: enter into a conversation on more equal terms and to take these jumps of faith that's required to, for instance, acknowledge that, even though I can't hear a mountain or a river or a forest speak.

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Arlene Tickner: there actually are communities that can and that you know both learn from all of those you know other than human beings but also take cues from them.

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Arlene Tickner: When they pose on how to go about you know, dealing with the crisis of the ecosystem, and this is actually lent itself to policies, as we know.

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Arlene Tickner: to care for the environment in a better way so that's just one example of how are you know relation ality if taken seriously can actually lend itself to.

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Arlene Tickner: better practices of care in relation to the environment, and you know many, many analysis and analysts and a scientist says has acknowledged that.

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Arlene Tickner: If if we were to leave the care of Mother Nature in the hands of you know ancestral communities, we would all be better off because they have have a proven record of caring better.

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Arlene Tickner: than then than others so that's just one example in my Colombian context, on the implementation of the piece of chords.

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Arlene Tickner: and processes of transitional justice have acknowledged, not only the land as a victim of the conflict, but have tapped into.

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Arlene Tickner: Both indigenous communities and after descended communities of some of the you know the the most heinous victims of the conflict, with an eye to.

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Arlene Tickner: repairing get providing you know repair restoration and justice, and these are dynamics and which actually relational processes have taken place when, for instance, violence has meant.

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Arlene Tickner: clandestine burial sites of people killed by paramilitaries or by the guerrillas or by the army.

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Arlene Tickner: The land become sick and requires a healing process in order to recover its sustenance, and these are processes in which communities are unlisted to participate.

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Arlene Tickner: And so the whole process of truth, telling of restoration has involved communities that also practice relation ality in a deep sense.

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Arlene Tickner: And I would say that, even though the peace process is not going as well as one would hope this actually does lend itself to our more robust and healthy kind of peace than one that would be obtainable without that type of participation.

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Nora Fisher Onar: Thank you, we are almost out of time and you've sort of just did to this with your.

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Nora Fisher Onar: With these two sort of powerful examples, but I wonder if you could leave us because you started us off on a sort of a notice some some despair right the planetary despair and our existential crisis, and I wonder what what it is that gives you hope when you.

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Nora Fisher Onar: When you look at the.

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Nora Fisher Onar: At this field in which you have you know invested so much so much care and so much wisdom, you know what what gives you what gives you hope and motivation and you know working in this context, and that will be our last.

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Nora Fisher Onar: Our last question.

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um.

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Arlene Tickner: I think yeah there's a lot to despair about nowadays, and I certainly share many other people's to spare what's going on around us, and yet.

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Arlene Tickner: i've made note of the end of the land acknowledgement joy is justice.

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Arlene Tickner: I am inspired I am inspired every day I don't like the word resilience because it's become a cliche during the pandemic and here, especially in Colombia, but I.

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Arlene Tickner: I am inspired by the not only the resilience and but the joy of marginalized communities that that around me and in different parts of the world, despite.

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Arlene Tickner: All of the sufferings and injustices that they have had to endure, we talk a lot about, for instance, environmental, you know inks and anxiety that that white northerners are now feeling with with global warming and we are obviously all feel the pandemic to and yet.

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Arlene Tickner: we're talking about communities that have experienced existential angst and violence.

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Arlene Tickner: For many, many years you know if not forever and yet they you know in many I don't want to simplify in any way, but you know, in many ways they never.

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Arlene Tickner: lose completely their joy and their insistence on life and and I personally find hope.

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Arlene Tickner: and optimism and that I also find hope and optimism and these types of local initiatives that actually are taking place all over the world, in response to the existential crisis that we now face.

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Arlene Tickner: And I can only continue to believe that these you know eventually will start moving upwards and achieving a global voice and power of that actually is capable of creating the type of transformation and change that I believe that we all both need and deserve.

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Nora Fisher Onar: Thank you so much likely techno your with remind me of something I saw the date in the context of these very thought on times that you've discussed that.

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Nora Fisher Onar: Justice is love in public, and I think that sort of also also speaks to the the 10th that we're all facing here to try and bridge our micro engagements with a sort of a broader.

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Nora Fisher Onar: project of restoration and care for our world, and each other, so thank you so so much for taking the time to take care with us and to.

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Nora Fisher Onar: share with us, and we wish you the best of luck and cannot wait to read all of the all of the work that you continue to produce with really stunning stunning passion and an insight, so thank you so much.

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Arlene Tickner: Thank you everyone for participating.

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Nora Fisher Onar: And I also just want to thank a This is our final days for the forum, and I must expand a huge heartfelt passionate Thank you to Chris Vander way, who has been remarkable remarkable work.

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Nora Fisher Onar: Throughout the Semester very, very deeply and editor for all these four and I just wanted to also say thank you to Kristen very publicly right now, because this is our last form, so thank you.

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Nora Fisher Onar: Okay, and we will make a report, according to this available available to the audience and I will also save the questions in the chat some of them were a little bit more specific and I will save those questions and.

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Nora Fisher Onar: and convey them to Dr techniques, so that you can continue to engage Okay, thank you.